Mondays with Hawgdaddy: June 8, 2009
The Problem of Pain: No this isn’t another article about whether or not fish feel pain…
For a long time, I’ve thought the so-called Problem of Pain was the most persuasive argument against the existence of God. It’s certainly not the most rigorously logical argument, but it’s the one that strikes most deeply at whether or not I feel that God exists. In case you’re not familiar with the problem, it basically states that, given the amount of needless pain and suffering in the world, it’s highly unlikely that God exists, or at the very least, that an all-powerful, all-good, etc god exists. If He did exist, He would not allow these types of things to happen. I have found that I’m not alone in the assessment. I have heard from many that they could not believe in God solely because of all the evil and pain they’ve witnessed and experienced.
There are philosophical arguments, some of them very good ones, that attempt to explain why pain is necessary even if God does exist, but to some extent all these arguments feel “cold.” When we feel pain, we don’t want to hear an abstract argument. We want answers. We want to be comforted. We want to know that there is a reason, a point to all this. The problem of pain is such a difficult dilemma that, did the available evidence not lead me personally to the inescapable conclusion that God does in fact exist, I would probably have never become a Christian on the basis of the problem of pain alone. As it is, I have been forced, both by argument and personal experience, to accept that God exists and that the problem of pain is just something I am not allowed to understand in this life.
We all experience pain in this life. Some much more than others. I have not personally been subject to an abundance of tragedy. I have been very blessed. When most people talk about the problem of pain, they speak of overwhelming examples such as the Holocaust or severely abused children or terrible natural disasters. But when I think about the problem of pain, I see my uncle. My mother and her brother were raised in exceedingly tough conditions. I will not go into details, but it was not a good life. From what I knew of my uncle, he was a good man. He became a Baptist preacher. He was always jovial and loud and kind. He was a big man. That’s one reason why I was so struck when he developed liver cancer. For two long years, the cancer tore at him until he was only a shell of a man. My grandmother and mother were broken right along side him, and neither has fully recovered. This happened many years ago, and I still recall much of it. Even then, as a child, I questioned God angrily. How could He let this happen to someone like my uncle? But He did let it happen. And one day, my uncle died, like so many others.
Before he died, he wanted to go fishing one last time. He had his youngest son take him down to the lake, and he fished for awhile during the late evening. Somehow, perhaps miraculously, my uncle hooked and landed a four pound largemouth on a plastic worm. We have a photograph of him holding the fish with this enormous grin stretched across his face, his son standing beside him. For two years my uncle was in unspeakable pain, and I rarely saw that jovial side I had known all my life. But in that photograph, there he was again.
I don’t have all the answers. Anyone who tells you they do is lying. I don’t know why the world has so much pain. I don’t know why God allows terrible, nightmarish things to happen to innocent children. But I can tell you that I believe there is a God, and I believe he was there with my uncle that day at the edge of the lake. I thank Him for giving me so many good times on the water with my family and friends. I have seen Him in their faces, in the morning sky, in the storm clouds, in the trees as the wind whispers through them, in the beautiful colors on a trout’s side. He has blessed me so much through fishing and the places fishing has led me. All fishermen can be thankful that, despite all the pain we feel and witness in this life, fishing can do a bit to ease the pain for a time. For that reason alone, we can be confident that this sport we love holds at least some intrinsic value.
There are moments when God has granted me peace and a certainty that there is a reason to it all. Even if I can’t see the reason, I can see Him. For whatever reason, a hefty number of these moments have occurred in the outdoors.
My uncle never lost his faith. In fact, his faith was so strong that it carried many of us through his illness.
Take care,
Nathan
Tags: fishing, God, Mondays with Hawgdaddy, problem of pain, religion
June 12th, 2009 at 10:48 am
I’m thinking on this one (have been for a couple of days). Quick thought here: It all depends on what happens after this life. If you think this life is preparation for the next, no biggy because everybody gets their “reward” whether good or bad. Those who suffer pain in this life will have it made up for in the next. Those who dish out the pain in this life will pay for it in the next. Of course, if you don’t think the afterlife has this type of reward/punishment it makes it that much harder.
Let me know what your “afterlife” thoughts are, and I’ll try to get back with something more appropriate to your thoughts. Not that I have any answers, just kicking around ideas that might be more in line with your ideas and don’t really want to debate it.
-scott c
June 13th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Scott,
I appreciate your thoughts. I know enough about the “problem of pain” to realize that it’s a bit over my head. I guess that’s not stopping me from writing stuff about it though…
There have been entire books written on the problem of pain (i.e. the aptly titled The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis) by folks much smarter than myself. You might want to check some of them out if you’d like to delve deeper into this. I also highly recommend Hard Questions, Real Answers by William Lane Craig which features a chapter on the subject. Both Craig’s and Lewis’ books are easily understood by laymen. There are scholarly works out there for those wanting to delve even deeper.
Anyway, my thinking on actually answering the problem goes along these lines: there are two ways to approach the problem, from a purely philosophical view or from a theological view. The philosophical arguments are concerned with the very existence of God. The theological views assume a god or maybe even a specific religion or denomination, and theologians try to figure out the correct way to think about the problem as it relates to their religion.
Your thoughts seem to fit more with the theological view – i.e. assuming there is a god and he is just and he intends for us to experience an afterlife, then he will hand out rewards/punishments in the afterlife based on the way we live this life. That is one way of dealing with the problem of pain. [Keep in mind I'm coming at this from a Christian viewpoint.] I’m not sure my own answer would be exactly that, although it’s close. According to Christian teaching, we all deserve death (Rom 3:23 – For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God). There is no one who is perfect, which is what God demands. Therefore, the only way we get anything at all in the afterlife is by accepting the atoning sacrifice offered by Jesus. So, one who is terrible throughout most of this life but accepts Jesus in the end is just as “deserving” of Heaven as one who accepts Jesus early on and lives a mostly good life. The thing is, none of us “deserve” Heaven. Jesus himself told a parable that hints at this (workers in a vineyard). Then again, there are other teachings that suggest there will be “levels” of rewards. I guess my final theological answer to the problem of pain would be, “I just don’t know.” It’s more important to me that God exists. If He does, well, then I trust Him, which leads me to…
From the philosophical viewpoint, the question centers around whether or not there is a logical contradiction in the co-existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, etc. being (God) and all the pain we witness/experience in the world. It seems to me that the most common answer from those who believe in God centers around free will. This is the answer I accept. It goes something like: it’s probable that the very existence of beings with free will leads inevitably to at least some of those beings committing evil. God creating beings of free will is in itself a great good. It is probable that the total sum of goodness brought about by God creating us humans is greater than the evil resulting from our creation. Therefore, because the good outweighs the bad in the end, the existence of God is not contradicted by the existence of evil and pain. Keep in mind that when believers try to answer the problem of pain, they are trying to answer atheist objections to the existence of God. It’s sort of a defensive battle for the believer. There are many, many arguments (offensive maneuvers) that suggest God does exist rather than simply answering atheistic objections (i.e. Kalam Cosmological Argument, Moral Argument, Ontological Argument, etc).
Keep in mind this is a very simplistic discussion on the argument, from both theological and philosophical viewpoints. I am not a philosopher or theologian. If you’re at all interested in this issue, please seek out more knowledgeable sources like Lewis and Craig. The problem is really too big to cover in the comments section of a blog. Just stating what I do know about it in the best way I can. My original article up there was basically a way of saying that I think fishing helps some of us ease a bit of the pain we feel in this life.
Take care and please let me know your further thoughts on the subject,
Nathan
P.S. – I may not have internet access during the next week, so don’t feel offended if I don’t respond right away.
June 27th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Nathan,
When I first saw this I thought it might be about the C.S. Lewis book by that title and having read the book, I had to check this out. While it wasn’t exactly what I thought it was about, you wrote a very interesting article. The problem of pain has puzzled many people over the years. While I don’t personally claim to really truly understand the subject, I do believe in God and with that belief I must also acknowledge an alternate evil power who is obviously working counter to what God would personally do… If God were to simply destroy the devil, it would make him look very arbitrary and cause doubts as to the extent of freedom of choice. I believe that bad things happen because God is allowing the devil to be unmasked to the world and the universe. Someday all the pain and suffering will be over and God will make the earth new…
I really liked one of the last things you said in the article, “There are moments when God has granted me peace and a certainty that there is a reason to it all. Even if I can’t see the reason, I can see Him. For whatever reason, a hefty number of these moments have occurred in the outdoors.” This resonates with me because I have often felt the same thing. Some of my favorite moments with God over the years have been in the woods during a fishing trip such as during a hike up Little River trail. God’s second book is a blessing indeed!
June 27th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
David,
I actually had Lewis’ book in mind when I wrote this article, but I didn’t want to write about the book itself. I guess memories of my uncle were weighing heavily. C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors. As I recall he approached the problem of pain from the standpoint that pain may be inevitable in a world with creatures of free-will, and surely the existence of creatures of free-will (us) is worth the pain, in the end. I could be wrong about that, and obviously, that’s a pretty simple statement of a pretty complicated argument. If you like C.S. Lewis, I highly recommend William Lane Craig’s popular works (like Reasonable Faith and Hard Questions, Real Answers). Also check out his website: http://www.reasonablefaith.org.
By the way, I’m anxiously awaiting more reports from your trip out west. I can’t believe you get to go back out there again this summer! I may be overcome with jealousy before it’s over with! I’ve been trying to finagle a job with the Park Service out there, but so far no luck. Take care and good luck,
Nathan
June 27th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
Nathan,
If you ever figure out how to get a job with the Park Service out west, let me know how you accomplish it…I used to want to be a park ranger and still wouldn’t mind doing it to get to live in one of those beautiful places!
David Knapp
June 28th, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Nathan,
I’m still here.
I’m not too interested in pursuing the topic in much depth, so a blog comment is just about the right amount of space.
When you said, “Even if I can’t see the reason, I can see Him,” you are expressing faith in Him. And that is all that really matters. The logical side of the brain tells one that there must be an argument to make that “proves” x, y or z about a particular religious belief.
But when a theist argues with an atheist, there really isn’t a good argument that will indeed “prove” anything to the atheist. The atheist must have an experience that will change him so he can have his own faith.
So I think trying to convince an atheist through debate is a tough proposition.
More challenging for the theist is to convince himself that faith is enough, that there is no need to “prove” anything. When that point is reached it liberates the theist from worry or concern about the atheist’s arguments–they don’t matter and they don’t need to be engaged in.
Which just gets back to what you already said, “There are moments when God has granted me peace and a certainty that there is a reason to it all. ” Stick to your faith!
Anyhow, just my $0.02.
June 29th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Scott,
I know you’re not too interested in pursing the subject right now, but there actually is a lot of healthy debate out there between theists and atheists. Some of the world’s most respected philosophers might contest your statement: “there really isn’t a good argument that will indeed ‘prove’ anything to the atheist.” William Lane Craig often debates prominent atheist philosophers. Many of the transcripts are available if you ever become interested in such things. Alvin Plantinga is another prominent philosopher who happens to be a Christian and regularly defends the Christian faith with powerful arguments. I would be willing to bet the arguments of these two men have proven persuasive enough to change the minds of many self-proclaimed atheists and agnostics. I think these arguments are important for Christians to engage in, not so much to convince themselves, but to help convince others. I personally believe there is a “mind” component to faith as well. If there weren’t good, rational reasons for belief, I don’t think I’d be a believer today, no matter what “feelings” I experience while out fishing.
Anyway, I’m really pleased with this line of comments. It’s not every day you get to have such discussions on a fishing blog! You are right in there being no further need to convince myself. Once I became a believer (crossed that line or whatever) I began to “know” that God exists, and I began to see Him in all sorts of places. Of course, things can get blurry on my end. When I break off on a few limbs, tie my leader in a snarl of windknots and blow a cast on a big fish, well, I tend to lose sight of more important things. Lol. Take care,
Nathan